Later this month, Heike Meyer will travel from her wood-fired bakery in Fairfax, Vermont, to Munich, representing the United States and the Bread Bakers Guild of America at the first-ever International Bread Sommelier Competition. As the founder of Brot Bakehouse School and Kitchen, Heike has built a reputation for bridging European tradition with Vermont terroir. She recently completed her Bread Sommelier certification at the Akademie Deutsches Bäckerhandwerk Weinheim. We sat down with Heike for an in-depth interview about her baking journey, her work as an educator, and what it means to be a "bread ambassador."

What were your earliest experiences with baking, and when did bread enter the picture? 

My father made simple cakes on the weekends—yeasted apple cakes, marble cakes, fresh strawberry tartes. It was part of our German "Kaffeezeit," that afternoon break for cake and coffee. I still have Kaffeezeit every day. My love for dough began with cake. Bread came much later. I didn’t bake bread in Europe; there was no need because we were surrounded by good bakeries. But when I moved to the U.S., we lived in a place where there were none. So I started baking. That’s when I got the sourdough bug. 

How did your move from Berlin to the U.S. shape your baking? 

Moving to the U.S. was the turning point. I was working in the media, not food, but once I started baking bread, I couldn’t stop. Living here made me appreciate how central bread is to culture. In Europe, good bread is taken for granted. In the U.S., I had to seek it out and eventually make it myself. 

Also, travel has been a big influence. I always say: send every young person abroad. Experiencing food in different places opens your mind. That’s true for kids and for adults. Wherever I go, I visit bakeries. Dough is a universal language. You find bread in every culture, in every shape and form. 

What led you to open Brot Bakehouse in Vermont? 

When I started teaching baking, I realized how much had been lost—not just techniques, but a way of thinking about bread. Bread became a commodity, something mass-produced and soulless. But making bread can be transformative. It builds confidence, mindfulness, and connection. 

We teach all kinds of baking, but I always return to sourdough. It represents everything I value: time, patience, craft, nutrition. Our classes focus on the full picture: where grain comes from, who grows it, and how to make bread that respects that whole system. It’s about slowing down and asking good questions.

You recently became a Certified Bread Sommelier. What motivated you to pursue that? 

It was a journey of the senses—and of the soul. Bread has always been more than food for me. As a teenager, I’d bike 30 minutes just to get a specific roll from a favorite bakery. I always loved eating bread, but I wanted to understand it deeply. 

The sommelier program was appealing because of its international scope. Bread reflects geography, climate, history, and people. I wanted to study that, to learn how something so humble—flour, water, salt—can carry so much story and identity. 

What was the certification process like? 

It’s rigorous. You study online and travel to Germany for in-person training at the Akademie in Weinheim. The standards are high. Our cohort was very diverse...people from Brazil, Dubai, Norway, the Caribbean. One student couldn’t get rye flour at home and used cassava. That was humbling and eye-opening. 

You learn about flavor, fermentation, pairing, culture. You refine your senses. But more than that, you become an ambassador. The Academy made that very clear: we’re not just bread makers; we’re bread storytellers.

How has the certification changed your teaching at Brot Bakehouse? 

I’ve added guided tasting sessions to every class, and they’ve become the most popular part. We explore texture, aroma, structure, flavor. Whether someone is new to baking or very experienced, they leave with a deeper appreciation for bread. 

I also emphasize the cultural side—why certain breads taste the way they do, what they tell us about a place. It has made my teaching more holistic and joyful. 

You're about to compete in the Bread Sommelier World Championship. How are you preparing? 

Lots of sensory training. I spend time blind tasting breads, identifying flours by smell, and pairing bread with things like chocolate, kimchi, cider, even coffee. It’s like wine tasting—but crunchier. 

I’m also researching global bread traditions and trends. There’s a lot of innovation coming out of Asia right now. The competition isn’t just about taste; it’s about understanding context and telling a story. 

We don’t know exactly what the format will be, which makes it exciting. I think everyone going is curious and passionate. It will be fun. Whether or not I place in the top three, I know I’ll learn a lot. 

What does it mean to you to represent the Guild at the competition? 

It’s an honor. For me, the Guild represents craft, sharing, and community. And that aligns so well with the mission of the bread sommelier. 

There’s so much diversity in the U.S. baking scene. The Guild brings together people from all kinds of backgrounds, and we learn from one another. That spirit of exchange is what this competition is about too. We’re building something bigger than any one bakery.

How do you see the role of a bread sommelier in the U.S.? 

There’s a lot of potential. Most people here only know a few grains—wheat, maybe rye. But there’s so much more: spelt, einkorn, teff. Bread sommeliers can help people discover those flavors. 

We also have a chance to connect bakers and farmers. If people taste something new and love it, they might start asking for it. That creates demand, which helps farmers grow diverse grains. It all starts with flavor and story. 

I want people to walk into an Ethiopian restaurant and recognize injera as more than a flatbread. I want them to taste a miso-porcini sourdough in France and think, “That’s bold and beautiful.” Bread is culture, and it should surprise and delight us. 

Any final thoughts as you prepare to take the world stage? 

Bread is a living thing, and so is this community. We don’t need to be big to make an impact. A home baker selling 20 loaves matters. But we also need the big producers to care, and that starts with education. 

If someone leaves one of my classes and starts asking different questions at the market, that’s a win. If someone tastes a new grain and wants to learn more, that’s a win. That’s how change happens—loaf by loaf. 

Follow Heike’s journey on Instagram at @brotbakery. The International Bread Sommelier Competition takes place at the IBA Trade Fair in Munich, May 2025.

For Lucas Diggle, baking sourdough is an ongoing conversation between tradition, curiosity, and the endless pursuit of craft. With over two decades of professional baking experience, Lucas has built his career at the intersection of production excellence and education. After ten years in King Arthur’s production bakery, he joined the faculty at the King Arthur Baking School in Norwich, Vermont in 2021, where he shares his depth of knowledge with students from all across the country. A Certified Bread Baker through The Bread Bakers Guild of America and a member of the U.S. team at the prestigious Fête du Pain in Paris, Lucas has dedicated himself to helping others engage deeply with the fundamentals and nuances of baking. 

This May, Lucas teaches"Variations of Sourdough,"a two-day intensive workshop designed for experienced bakers ready to explore how temperature, hydration, flour selection, and fermentation time all shape sourdough breads. Students will work hands-on with different production methods, taste the contrasts, and leave with practical tools to refine their own sourdough systems. 

Before the class, we caught up with Lucas to talk about his path into baking, his approach to teaching, and what students can expect from their time together. In this special extended interview, he shares stories from the bench, lessons from the production floor, and insights into the craft of sourdough that will resonate with bakers navigating everything from daily production to long-term growth.

You’ve been baking professionally for over two decades. What first sparked your interest in baking, and what has kept you engaged with it all this time? 

I came to baking quite accidentally. After finishing my undergraduate degree, I started working at a bakery because I was dating a pastry chef who worked there. I had no idea what I was in for. The work was hard, fast paced, and physically and mentally demanding. I loved it. I had no idea how I could acquire the skills I watched the experienced bakers exude on the bench every day. There was something distinguished and almost esoteric about their understanding and I wanted in on it. What I lacked in talent I made up for in hard work.  

As an aside, that pastry chef and I now have four children together, and I often invoke this fact as vindication of my initial decision-making process. 

Many things keep me engaged with baking. In some ways, I’m chasing the same things I was chasing in those first years—knowledge, understanding, graceful execution. But I realized almost immediately in that first job that baking was something I could spend a lifetime pursuing and refining. It brings together several of my interests: history, chemistry, food, tradesmanship. I could go on and on. 

What’s one lesson you learned early in your baking career that continues to guide your approach today? 

My very first day on the job, the first thing the pastry chef training me said was, “the state of your bench is the state of your mind.” 

What an incredible and useful concept. Mise en place can become something of a way of life, or at least a practical strategy for effectively tackling many of life’s challenges. It’s easy to get in over one’s head in the bakeshop, or to reach beyond one’s grasp. Miseen place can be the difference between success and failure when we’re pushing ourselves, when something unexpected happens, or when we’re striving for that next level. 

You’re one of a distinguished number of The Bread Bakers Guild of America's Certified Bread Bakers. What did that certification process mean to you, and how has the Guild influenced your growth as a baker? 

The certification process turned out to be more significant than I thought. At the time, I was sort of ticking a box. But the program is an important part of building our professional infrastructure, establishing a shared language and sense of what’s important, and of challenging oneself to grow as a baker. 

But the best parts were the connections and camaraderie. I scheduled my test with my friend and colleague from King Arthur’s production bakery, Marc Levy. We traveled together, tested together, and had a great time doing it. I met Arlo Brandl, who was doing his Viennoiserie exam, and we’ve kept up with each other ever since. Getting time with folks like Solveig Tofte and Melina Kelson was great too. Certification turned out to be an exercise in strengthening our connections to one another as bakers. I recommend it to everyone, even experienced, accomplished professionals. 

As an organization, the Guild was very influential. When I started baking in the early 2000’s, I instantly had access to the best bakers in America. They would answer my questions on the Guild forum and were generous with their time and knowledge. The publications of the Guild and their sponsorship of the Coupe du Monde teams were very effecting. Getting those spiral bound books of the team’s winning formulas inspired me to keep learning and to try new things. More than anything, the Guild reminded me that I wasn’t alone. Knowing that other people all over the country were getting up to go do the bake was sustaining when things got hard. 

After ten years in King Arthur’s production bakery, how did that experience shape the way you teach now at the Baking School? 

The bakery during my tenure was no nonsense, but also a lot of fun. It was a baker’s bakery, if that makes sense. There was a real emphasis on quality, ethos, and solid teamwork. So as an instructor, I try to communicate how important it is to establish and work in a culture of excellence. I also know that no one is harder on a baker than they are on themselves. I’ve made every mistake there is and done so on a commercial scale. If we react properly, failure is valuable and can set the stage for higher heights. 

For years, I worked with Jeffrey Hamelman, who founded the King Arthur Bakery, and there’s a lot of him in how and why I do what I do. I ask quite a bit of students, but I do everything I can to give them the tools and support they need to accomplish what I ask. We’re nothing without the inter-generational continuum of which we’re a part. Without it, a baker may spend years reinventing the wheel. I try to pass on what others were generous enough to share with me, without reservation or hesitation. I do this even as I marvel at all the things I have yet to learn. 

Representing the U.S. at the Fête du Pain in Paris must have been incredible. What was that experience like, and what did you take away from it? 

The Fête du Pain was not only a professional highpoint, but one of the most meaningful experiences I’ve ever had. When I stop and think about it, it’s hard to put it into words. To me, being there meant everything. I think at some point most professional bakers wonder if they’re in the right career. I never wonder about that now. It’s no exaggeration to say that the Fête du Pain felt like a kind of absolution. My takeaway is that I made the right choice. All the years, the middle-of-the-night bakes, the twelve-hour days, the falling asleep on the living floor while reading Calvel after work, all of it was worth it. 

To be in Paris as a baker, in that city so rich with baking history, to be the guests of the Syndicat des Boulangers du Grand Paris, to be part of the Baker’s Mass at Notre-Dame Cathedral, to share that experience with my friend and teacher, other American bakers, and our French counterparts will remain one of the best experiences of my life. 

What inspired the focus on “variations” in sourdough for this upcoming class at King Arthur? 

The focus was inspired by a series of conversations with my colleague Blake Olson and my dear friend and teacher, the great baker and chef James MacGuire of Montreal. James has written important work on the history, ingredients, and processes of modern bread production. We have a running correspondence around several of the topics James has raised over the years. For those of us who have been lucky enough to work with him, James’ skill and understanding are immediately apparent. When we were approached about doing a class, Blake and I thought we could put some of these conversations in action and run a class that contrasts various production styles whose differences may seem rather minor but have a palpable effect on the finished products. 

The course emphasizes temperature, hydration, and fermentation time. Do you have an example of how changing just one of those variables transformed a loaf? 

The most immediate one that comes to mind is the simple shift from liquid to stiff levain. A change in hydration of the levain has a profound effect on the character and quality of the bread, even when all other things are equal. The popularity of liquid levain, which can certainly be used to make good bread, was something we wanted to contrast with other possibilities. I love when we do side-by-side tasting and students get to experience this contrast firsthand. 

What’s a common sourdough myth or misunderstanding that you’re hoping to clear up in this class? 

How much time do you have? I kid, but I can’t imagine contending with the saturation of contradictory digital information out there today. Two things I think of immediately are the idea that long periods of “cold fermentation” improve flavor, and that mastery involves well-guarded secrets. Retarding the dough certainly changes flavor, but my very favorite, and I would argue the very best breads, do not undergo any time under refrigeration. 

As for secrets, there are likely few, if any, and even fewer who “push the envelope.” So much of it has been done before. Too frequently I meet people who describe a method they believe they developed. I have baking texts, in some instances going back hundreds of years, that outline exactly what these folks believe they invented. A month’s internship in Paris and a zeal for Youtube will not yield the subtle treasures of generations. The landscape is full of both well-meaning folks who simply don’t know what they don’t know, and some more opportunistic entities that will gladly entice. 

How do you guide students through designing their own breads with intention, especially when there are so many variables at play? 

I don’t start with any a priori principles. I suppose my first question is “What do you want to make?” My second question is “Why?” We can go from there. The answers could be anything from trying to recreate a bread from a bakery that was memorable, designing a formula to fit in a certain production timeline, or bringing bread that lives in one’s head to fruition. The impulse is the thing. Sometimes you begin with one idea and then end up somewhere else. It’s all good exercise for the baker. 

For someone leaving your class, what’s one practice or mindset you hope they carry with them into their own baking journey? 

I hope they carry with them an increased respect for not only what they do, but what others have done before them. I hope they see themselves as part of something greater. I hope they resign themselves to study. I hope it makes them want to teach others. I hope they realize that the bread does not exist to further our ambitions, but that we exist to further the bread. I hope they come away knowing that we are united by what we do and that they are not in it alone.

Jen Heide is the Assistant Pastry Chef at The Everglades Club in Palm Beach, Florida, where she leads a large pastry team and helps oversee bread production, viennoiserie, and fine pastry. A graduate of the Florida Culinary Institute with 15 years of professional experience, Jen is a Certified Bread Baker, a Certified Executive Pastry Chef, and a Certified Baker.  

Though her title is pastry chef, she’s a bread baker at heart and always looking for ways to grow. In 2024, she earned her CBB credential through the Guild, approaching the process with deep curiosity, dedication, and a desire to lead by example. We spoke with Jen about her career, her love for stollen, and what certification has meant to her and her team.

Tell us a little about your path into baking. What drew you to it, and how did you get started? 

Ever since I was a little girl, cooking was my passion. I grew up in an Italian house, so I was helping my mom cook before I could even reach the countertop. At 11 years old, she got permission for me to take community classes at Florida Culinary Institute, which is where I took my first baking class. It was love at first chocolatey mess! 

I never looked back and eventually graduated with three degrees from that same school. I found many great mentors there who really helped guide my career to this day. 

Where are you working now, and what does your current role involve? 

I’m currently the Assistant Pastry Chef at The Everglades Club in Palm Beach, Florida. This is my 11th season at the club, and it’s where I’ve really honed my skills as a pastry chef and baker. 

We have a large pastry operation, and I supervise a staff of 18 pastry chefs. I’m responsible for AM production and for all products going to the restaurant onsite including breads and a nightly dessert buffet. 

My absolute favorite thing to make is our Christmas Stollen! I get very overexcited about it every year and always have at least four in my home freezer. It’s a beautiful mix of spices, candied fruits, and almond paste. I’m also really proud of the viennoiserie program I’ve helped build, as well as our rotating specialty breads. 

What made you decide to pursue certification through the Guild? 

I’ve wanted to do the Certified Bread Baker exam for a few years now. A friend of mine, Raymond Blanchard, took the exam a few years ago and I remember watching him practice for it. I was in awe. I knew then that one day I would take this exam. 

Beyond this exam, I’m really big into certifications. I also hold my Certified Executive Pastry Chef with the ACF and I’m a Certified Baker with the RBA. 

I’m not a competitive person at all, so I really enjoy certifications because they’re a great way to push yourself to evaluate your skills against the industry standard, learn, and grow without the competition aspect. At certifications, everyone is rooting for you to do your best. 

How did you prepare for the exam? Any challenges or surprising discoveries along the way? 

I prepared by going in and making as much bread as I could. I did about ten full practice runs, plus a month of baking smaller batches, just a few breads at a time, while taking detailed notes and looking for ways to improve. 

I learned a lot about myself, the baking process, and about each bread individually. I struggled the most with my baguettes, but by test time they were one of the breads I was most proud of. 

I called on all of my mentors to look at my breads while I was practicing, they truly are the best! 

What did it feel like to go through the testing process? 

The Guild was really good at answering questions before the exam, which helped me feel prepared. On exam day, you start with a baker’s math test, then you get a kitchen tour and prep time to make your preferments. The next morning, you begin production. 

It really was a pleasant experience. The judges were wonderful and very supportive throughout the exam. I had the pleasure of taking it alongside two awesome fellow bakers, and it was cool to look around and see each person’s unique take on the same breads. 

How has certification impacted your work, confidence, or goals? 

It reminds me that if you work really hard at something, the hard work pays off. 

It’s helped me feel more confident in my work, especially when I’m helping my team troubleshoot or teaching them to become better bread bakers. 

Any advice you’d give to bakers considering certification? 

I will always say—go for it! Setting a goal and going for it makes you better at your craft. You’ll learn so much about yourself, your time management, your organization, and your technical skills. 

Most importantly, find a mentor! Find someone you can show your products to and get feedback from. It’s such an important part of the process, and one of the keys to success.

As a leader at the Good Jobs Institute, Sandhya Mahadevan helps businesses create stronger, more resilient teams by aligning operational excellence with a commitment to good jobs. At Bread & Butter 2025, Sandhya brought her expertise to the Guild community, leading a powerful session on how bakery owners can make strategic choices that support both their people and their bottom line. 

We followed up with Sandhya after the event to hear more about her session, the conversations it sparked, and her perspective on building bakery businesses that are both sustainable and people centered.

Can you briefly describe your work with the Good Jobs Institute and how it connects to the food and baking industries? 

The Good Jobs Institute works with leaders in industries where frontline performance significantly impacts business success, food and baking being key among them. Our focus is helping leaders make operational choices and people investments to build capable, stable teams that can deliver on customer expectations and grow the business. 

We’ve worked with bakeries of all sizes, and at Bread & Butter, we explored how our five core choices—invest in people, focus and simplify, standardize and empower, cross-train, and operate with slack—can help bakery owners create a system that works better for everyone. 

Your session focused on the idea that operational efficiency and paying fair wages aren’t mutually exclusive. What’s the biggest misconception you encounter about that balance? 

That they’re at odds. A lot of people think that paying higher wages means sacrificing financial performance, but it’s actually the opposite. You need stable, motivated teams to execute well and build customer loyalty. Even with perfect SOPs (standard operating procedures), if your team is constantly turning over or juggling too much, the system breaks down. Zeynep Ton’s research shows that team stability correlates with better operational performance...less waste, better customer satisfaction, stronger margins. It’s not just a “nice-to-have.” It’s a core business strategy. 

What’s one takeaway from your session that you hope bakery owners bring back to their teams? 

That it’s possible to run a great business and offer good jobs. In fact, those things reinforce each other. The choices you make around your team and your operations are deeply connected. A more focused menu or simplified production schedule, for example, doesn’t just make your kitchen run smoother...it makes your employees’ experience better, which helps you retain talent. That’s the heart of the Good Jobs Strategy. 

In the session, you mentioned durability. Why is that word important right now for bakery owners? 

Sandhya: Because things change...costs go up, supply chains shift, customer habits evolve. A durable bakery is one that can flex with those changes because it has a strong foundation: a motivated, empowered team and clear, focused operations. When the egg price spikes or you need to pivot your menu, your team is ready to adapt. That’s the kind of durability we help businesses build. 

You mentioned that the GJI framework can be applied at any scale. What’s a small first step bakery owners can take if they’re just getting started? 

Start by asking yourself: What kind of job am I offering? Is it meeting both the basic and higher-level needs of the people I hope to hire and retain? Then look at your operations. Are you trying to do too much? Could simplifying your menu or process actually make life better for your team and your customers? 

It’s not about perfection. It’s about building awareness and starting to align your business decisions with the kind of workplace and outcomes you want. That’s where the transformation starts. 

Any final thoughts or reflections from the Bread & Butter experience? 

What struck me was how invested this community is in doing things the right way...not just in terms of craft, but in how they run their businesses. These aren’t folks looking for shortcuts. They’re looking for strategies that align with their values and help them build something that lasts. It was an honor to be a part of that conversation. 

Arturo Enciso didn’t set out to become a baker. But everything changed when he moved into a Long Beach rental with a dormant wood-fired oven in the backyard. Curious, Arturo picked up a copy of From the Wood-Fired Oven by Richard Miscovich, a fellow Bread Bakers Guild member, and something clicked. With no formal training, he taught himself to bake, pulling his first loaves from that backyard oven and discovering a lifelong calling in the process. 

Today, Arturo is the co-founder of Gusto Bread, a nationally recognized “Californian panadería” known for its slow-fermented sourdoughs, conchas, and deep reverence for heritage grains and ingredients like nixtamalized maize and heirloom beans. For the second year in a row, Gusto Bread is a finalist for the James Beard Award for Outstanding Bakery. He and his partner and co-founder Ana Belén Salatino opened Gusto Bread's storefront bakery in 2020.  

As he prepares to teach his upcoming in-person Guild class, Baking in the Milpa, with a Lens Toward Sustainability, Arturo spoke with us about his journey, the cultural roots behind his baking, and how ancestral ingredients are shaping the future of bread.

Your path into baking is so unique. Can you walk us through how it all began? 

I’m self-taught. I moved into a property in Long Beach that had a wood-fired oven in the backyard, and I just became really curious about it. I asked the owner if I could borrow some books they had, and from there, it kind of changed the course of my life. I didn’t have any background in baking, but once I started, I was hooked. 

How did that evolve into starting Gusto Bread? 

It started just as a curiosity, something I did for myself. But pretty quickly, I knew I wanted to make it my career. I got a cottage food license and started baking and selling bread from home. Eventually, we grew, added ovens, hired bakers, saved every penny. Then with a small business loan and my partner Ana on board, we built the bakery and opened it in 2020.

Your partner and co-founder Ana’s design work is such a big part of the Gusto Bread identity. What’s it like working together? 

It’s everything. She brings a whole side to the business that I just don’t have, branding, admin, operations. The care and intention she put into the visual side is just as important as the bread itself. That’s how we want people to feel when they walk in--that love and care in every detail.

Your conchas and use of masa harina have become iconic. How did your heritage start to play a bigger role in your baking? 

At first, I was focused on sourdough and European styles because that’s what I was learning. But it never felt quite complete. When I started exploring conchas and using ingredients like masa harina, it really lit something up, for me and for my family. My dad, who’s from Mexico City, had this emotional reaction to the breads. That’s when I knew I had to lean into my culture. It made the bread more meaningful.

Tell us about your upcoming Guild class, Baking in the Milpa. What inspired it? 

The milpa is an Indigenous Mesoamerican farming system where corn, beans, and squash are grown together, the “three sisters.” 

It’s an ancient example of sustainability and interdependence. I’ve been baking with those ingredients, bean purées, squash, heritage corn, and it made me want to share this approach. It’s not just about ingredients, but about rethinking how we source and relate to food.

You’ve also been a semifinalist for a James Beard Award two years in a row now. What does that mean to you? 

It’s definitely an honor. I’m grateful for the recognition, but it’s not why we do what we do. We went to the event last year mostly because people in our shop were so proud, it felt like we were representing our whole community. That made it worth it. 

Your bakery also faced some challenges recently with flooding and fire season. How did you manage? 

Yeah, flooding has been a real issue outside our building. We’ve tried to bring attention to it because it affects access to the shop. And during the fires, we were lucky to be out of the danger zone, but a lot of people displaced by the fires came to Long Beach. We tried to be a comforting space. Bakeries really matter in moments like that.

You’re known for giving your staff time off and promoting rest. That’s rare in this industry. 

From day one, Ana and I knew that rest had to be part of the culture. We’ve experienced burnout, and we don’t want that for our team. It’s how we stay present and keep the energy in the bakery alive. 

What’s next for Gusto Bread? 

We’ve expanded our menu a lot, laminated pastries, new breads, and now we’re looking at adding food, like tortas and sandwiches. That’s really exciting to me. It feels like the next evolution of what we can offer our community. 

Final question—what do you hope people take away from your class? 

Sustainability isn’t separate from culture. That baking can be a way to reconnect with history and land. And those ingredients like corn, beans, and squash, our ancestral ingredients, still have so much to teach us. 

Register for Arturo's class here.   

Follow Gusto Bread on Instagram and on their website. 

This month, we're breaking the mold.  

Instead of a standard Q&A, Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond of the Proofing Stage podcast turned their interview into exactly what they do best: a conversation.Just two bakers turned business owners turned podcasters talking about bagels, burnout, mentorship, water myths, and what it really takes to build something from scratch. 

Formerly of Bottoms Up Bagels in Baltimore, Joan and Michelle have always done things their own way. From launching a cross-country bagel roadshow to closing their beloved shop on their own terms, they’ve consistently chosen purpose over convention. Now they’re using their podcast to reflect, educate, and advocate for food entrepreneurs who don’t fit the traditional mold. 

Below is a shortened version of their recorded conversation. Listen to the full conversation here

Michelle: 

Joan, we're here today in a little different format. We have been talking with Arielle at the Bread Bakers Guild of America for quite a while now about doing a profile... and we thought rather than just write in those answers, let's just have a conversation.  

Joan:  

It all seems especially timely given that it's Women's History Month.   

Michelle:  

Absolutely...   

Arielle asks, “You started Bottoms Up Bagels in 2015 looking to fill a gap in Baltimore's bagel scene. Looking back, what has surprised you most about your journey?”  

Joan: 

One thing is just how many people would question our place in the food world... “What qualifies you to make bagels?” "What qualifies you to have such a business?" It’s interesting to me, being someone who was in the arena doing the hard work, that it was the spectators who were the most critical…  

Michelle:  

We were kind of ahead of the COVID bagel boom... On the one hand, people are questioning our qualifications. And on the other hand, there was such a ready audience for handmade, hand rolled, boiled bagels... People were happy to support it and really go to great lengths to get our stuff...  

Joan:  

Some of those more positive surprises were what buoyed me...  when dealing with… the late nights and the physical toll that baking can take on you.  

Joan:  

“Transitioning from pop-ups to a brick-and-mortar storefront was a huge step. You then shifted into the roadshow model. How did that change how you approached bagel making and business?”  

Michelle:  

Of course, there are many more…things to factor in when you are replicating your product, and you want to maintain high quality [when] you're doing it in different locations. [With] the Roadshow, we went about it in the same way we went about building the business… reaching out to community… stakeholders, making sure that we had some good input from the people on the ground…   

Joan:  

In addition to learning [about] new folks and being the away team...  it was just important to be able to try to do what we do elsewhere with almost M.A.S.H-like conditions. Could we, do it? Were we that good…? And we were...  

One of the other driving motivations…was to address the "it's the water that makes a good bagel" myth. Total and complete myth.  

Michelle:  

“What’s the future for Bottoms Up Bagels and how can folks find out what we're up to now?”  

Joan:  

We decided to cease operations of Bottoms Up Bagels. Michelle and I took a long hard look at the road that was potentially ahead for us, especially since we didn't own a property.  

We thought about what we wish we had to support us and who we wish we had to support us. And we thought about filling another niche… with that, we started the Proofing Stage podcast...  

Michelle:  

We were just realizing that we could have more of the impact that we were trying to have… taking all our past experience and all of our BUB experience and creating something that could hopefully help other small businesses and underrepresented founders.  

Michelle:  

“How has the Bread Bakers Guild supported you in your baking journey and why should others join?”  

Joan:  

BBGA has always been a legitimizing presence and community for us. We're self-taught bakers, which I'm super proud of - especially given all that we've been able to do - and food entrepreneurs… The Guild has actually seen us and seen value in how we've operated... There was a [Bread Lines] article during the pandemic…"Placemaking in the Era of Ghost Kitchens."… Really validating.  

Michelle:  

I still remember when we were in a shared kitchen, and we saw somebody wearing a BBGA hat… And we're like, "wait, what's that? We need to get in on that!" 

…In recent years, especially, there's more of the… business development focus that we were looking for… running businesses, support services for starting them, for exiting them. And I think the biggest thing is that unlike any other entrepreneurial community, BBGA gets that...  

Listen to Proofing Stage Podcast here. 

Celebrating Women’s Leadership in Business and Community 

In honor of Women’s History Month, we’re shining a light on The Women’s Bakery, an organization proving that when women are given opportunities to lead, entire communities thrive. Through baking, business training, and entrepreneurship, this East Africa-based social enterprise equips women with the tools to pursue financial independence nourishing  their communities. 

With two successful bakeries in Rwanda and expansion plans in Kenya, The Women’s Bakery is tackling both economic inequality and food insecurity. Their One Bread Project, for example, provides fortified snacks to thousands of schoolchildren every day, ensuring that nutrition isn’t a barrier to education. 

The Guild spoke with Markey Culver, founder and CEO of The Women’s Bakery, to discuss the organization’s mission, challenges, and future goals.

What inspired the creation of The Women’s Bakery? 

Markey Culver: The Women’s Bakery started during my time in the Peace Corps in Rwanda. I was working as an English teacher and supporting a rural health clinic, where food scarcity was a serious challenge—most people ate just one meal a day. Out of necessity, I decided to bake bread for myself, using a simple recipe from a Peace Corps cookbook. When the local women saw the bread, they were intrigued because it wasn’t something commonly available in our area. 

They asked me to teach them how to bake, and that’s when I realized that bread could be more than sustenance—it could be a means of empowerment. That moment was the beginning of what would later become The Women’s Bakery.

How has The Women’s Bakery evolved since those early days? 

What started as informal breadmaking lessons in my Peace Corps village has grown into a structured social enterprise. We now operate two bakeries in Rwanda employing and empowering local women; the bakeries are funded by our US nonprofit until they can sustain themselves as profitable businesses. These bakeries produce nutrient-rich breads, including our signature "Nutribuns," which are fortified rolls designed to supplement the diets of schoolchildren. 

We currently provide daily bread – a nutritious snack – to over 20,000 children in Rwanda, helping bridge the nutritional gap for students who might otherwise go the entire school day without a meal. 

Additionally, we have reached capacity at two of our three bakeries, which has led us to invest in a new facility that is four times the size of our existing bakeries. This expansion will allow us to consolidate two locations into one large bakery, significantly increasing our production capacity and impact.

What makes The Women’s Bakery unique? 

We are women-centered. Apart from drivers and cleaners, all our employees—from bakers to leadership—are women. This isn’t just about employment; it’s about leadership and ownership. The women at TWB bake bread, manage operations, oversee finances, and make key business decisions.

What are your goals for the future? 

Our next big step is expanding into Kenya. Scaling presents both opportunities and challenges. Opportunities to try our model in a new market, and challenges to raise the funds needed to do so. We will be looking for partnerships in Kenya to ensure that we scale responsibly and, ultimately, sustainably.  

We’re also focused on improving the nutritional value of products. One idea we’re exploring is filling our Nutribuns with protein-rich ingredients like chickpeas, making them more of a meal. The challenge is ensuring that these innovations remain cost-effective to be scalable.

How can people support The Women’s Bakery? 

Sharing our story is a huge help. If people are inspired by our mission, they can support us through donations, corporate partnerships, or by connecting us with potential partners in East Africa.  

To learn more or to support their mission, visit their website here for more information.

For Azikiwee Anderson, baking started as an experiment but quickly became a calling. He didn’t grow up in a baking family, nor did he see people who looked like him in the artisan bread world. But when he picked up a bag of flour during the pandemic, something clicked. 

What began as a personal challenge turned into Rize Up Bakery, a movement that blends high-quality sourdough, cultural storytelling, and a commitment to community empowerment. Azikiwee isn’t just making bread—he’s creating representation, access, and opportunity in a space where Black bakers have been historically underrepresented. 

His journey is about passion, resilience, and breaking barriers—not just in baking, but in building a business that uplifts people and brings communities together. 

In this Black History Month spotlight, we sat down with Azikiwee to discuss his path into baking, how he turned Rize Up into a thriving business, and why representation in the food industry matters more than ever.

What first sparked your passion for baking? How did that lead to the creation of Rize Up? 

Azikiwee Anderson: "I never set out to be a baker. If you had told me years ago that I’d be running a bakery, I would have laughed. I was a private chef before the pandemic, but I never baked. In fact, growing up, I didn’t even see baking as something I could do—because I didn’t see Black bakers in that space. I had never seen anyone that looked like me bake.  

I honestly thought that baking was just something white people did. The number of things that, as a little Black kid, you're told you can't do or that 'we don’t do' is oppressive, right? I never had the opportunity to even imagine myself doing it.So, when people asked me during the pandemic, ‘Hey, you should do this with us,’ I was like, ‘Nah, I don’t do that.’ But I got lightweight shamed into it. They were like, ‘Come on, we're all doing it,’ so I did it. And I was terrible at it. And that pissed me off. I hated that I sucked at it. So, I kept at it. 

Then the murder of George Floyd happened, and that moment broke my mind. Every day, I wanted to yell or cry, and I realized that when I disappeared into making bread, I felt okay. It was like therapy. It made me okay. It was very zen-like, and I could kind of work on healing myself. And the process of baking and sharing that bread with others—it just felt like it mattered."

Caption: Pictured above is Rize Up's signature Ube Sourdough loaf. 

You started Rize Up during the pandemic. What challenges did you face, and how did you push through them?

"I started in my kitchen, just baking for myself. One loaf turned into four, then thirty, then a hundred. When I got a write-up in the San Francisco Chronicle, I had 500 orders overnight. I had to turn my website off because I couldn’t even process that amount of bread. I didn’t have a commercial kitchen; I was just figuring it out on the fly. 

And then there’s the fact that I’m a big Black dude in the artisan bread world. People weren’t expecting me to be behind this brand. I’d show up to meetings and people would assume I was delivering the bread—not making it. But instead of letting that get me down, I used it as fuel to show that we do belong here."* 

How has your past experience influenced your approach to bread? 

"I was a private chef before this, so I approach flavors and technique differently. I think about bread as food—not just as a baking science but as something that carries flavors, cultures, and stories. I want people to taste the intention behind what we make."

What role has your heritage played in shaping your identity as a baker and entrepreneur? 

"I know what it feels like to be ‘other.’ I know what it feels like to not feel important or to have to assimilate to be accepted. So I decided that if I was going to make bread, I wanted to make things that reflect the people who don’t always see themselves represented in this industry. Our flavors, our ingredients, our approach—it’s all about making sure people feel included and seen." 

Rize Up started as a grassroots movement. How do you balance staying true to your mission while growing your business? 

"We’re in over 70 locations now, but at our core, we’re still a community-driven bakery. One of the things I care about most is accessibility—bread shouldn’t be a luxury. That’s why I’m working on ways to accept EBT and other programs so that we can keep serving people regardless of income level."

How have collaborations and community outreach shaped Rize Up’s success? 

"Collaboration is everything. We work with local farms, food banks, and other small businesses. It’s not just about selling bread—it’s about showing up for our community in real ways." 

What’s the best advice you’ve received since starting Rize Up? 

"‘Just keep going.’ There are always going to be reasons to quit. Don’t." 

What does the Bread Bakers Guild of America mean for your work as a baker and business owner? 

"Being part of the Guild means representation. I never had a baking community growing up, so to be welcomed into this space means a lot. It’s also a place to learn and share, which is exactly what this industry needs." 

What’s next for you and Rize Up? 

"We’re working on opening a café—a space where people can come, see what we do, and feel part of it. Beyond that, I just want to keep making space for others and keep baking bread that means something." 

Follow Rize Up Bakery: Website| [Instagram] 

Chef Ederique Goudia is a chef, entrepreneur and champion for Black and minority-owned food businesses. As the founder of In the Business of Food (IBF Detroit), she works to break down systemic barriers in the food industry while uplifting and empowering food entrepreneurs through education, mentorship and advocacy. At Bread & Butter 2025, Ederique will lead Menu Design, Optimization & Pricing, equipping bakery owners and operators with the tools to create sustainable, profitable and value-driven businesses. 

We are honored to highlight Chef Ederique during Black History Month, recognizing her leadership in the food industry and her commitment to building stronger, more inclusive food businesses. 

You have a dynamic background in food systems, entrepreneurship, and community advocacy. What initially drew you to the food industry, and how did your journey lead to supporting small food businesses? 

I was first drawn to hospitality then culinary. I spent a lot of time with my grandfather in his gardens and with my grandparents and parents in their kitchens cooking. By high school, I realized this passion could be a career and that kickstarted my journey into the food industry. I graduated from Louisiana Tech University with a BA in Business Management/Entrepreneurship with dreams of opening my own restaurant one day. 

But after moving to Detroit over 20 years ago, my career initially took a more corporate path in the food industry. However, as I engaged more deeply with Detroit’s food and entrepreneurial community, I found my true purpose. This community resonated strongly with my Louisiana roots and truly inspired me to help cultivate a more supportive and sustainable ecosystem for food businesses in the city. 

What inspired you to launch In the Business of Food (IBF Detroit)? 

Recognizing a very significant gap in industry-specific resources for food businesses, I started In the Business of Food (IBF Detroit) in 2017. IBF Detroit is a food agency that offers tailored support and resources for food entrepreneurs while addressing the unique challenges they face. 

Supporting small businesses, to me, means tackling systemic barriers while nurturing community. Whether advocating for fair wages, reducing food waste, or addressing mental health in hospitality, I’m driven by the belief that food economies thrive when everyone has a seat at the table. 

For the Bread Bakers Guild workshop, I’ll bring that same ethos: blending technical know-how with the stories that make food matter. Because when we empower bakers and makers, we’re not just building businesses—we’re preserving traditions and crafting new ones. 

Your work goes beyond food—you’re deeply involved in food security, mental health, and fair wages. How do you integrate these values into your business coaching and menu development approach? 

I coach clients to build business models that prioritize sustainability for people first and menu development as activism. As we talk about sourcing, we connect food businesses with Black/Indigenous-owned farms; when discussing pricing, we teach them how to build in fair wages before profit. 

With your experience supporting under-resourced and minority-owned food businesses, what advice would you give to small bakery owners looking to grow sustainably? 

Building a sustainable bakery business isn’t just about scaling - it’s about staying true to your values through that growth. Turn competition into collaborations, bake equity into every transaction, waste nothing, honor everything, and measure what matters by tracking your triple bottom line: people, planet, AND profit. 

If you could give one piece of advice to early-stage bakery owners, what would it be? 

Build relationships BEFORE you need them. It will be those trusted partnerships that will sustain your business. 

Where can people connect with you online? 

You can find me across these digital spaces: 

• Website: IBF Detroit – You can even schedule a free 30-minute virtual session with any of our food business experts if you’re seeking assistance. 

• Instagram: @inthebusinessoffood 

• Instagram: @ederiquegoudia 

• LinkedIn: In the Business of Food 

Join Ederique at Bread & Butter 2025 

March 23-25, 2025 
Ann Arbor, MI 
Session:Menu Design, Optimization & Pricing 

Spots are limited—register today! 

Register Now

With a career spanning Bouchon Bakery, Lincoln Ristorante, b.Patisserie, and Hart Bageri, Guild Member Susannah Schoolman has worked in some of the world's most renowned pastry kitchens. Her expertise in laminated doughs and viennoiserie has shaped her approach to cooking and baking. Today, she's pioneering the plant-based pastry and cooking movement as the Founder and CEO of Tourlami, a plant-based butter designed for professional kitchens.  

In her upcoming Guild class at the Institute of Culinary Education in New York, Susannah will teach plant-based lamination techniques–helping bakers master flaky croissants, brioche, and puff pastry. Susannah is proving that laminated doughs can be just as flaky, structured, and delicious without dairy. 

We recently spoke with Susannah about her journey into the world of baking, the challenges of plant-based butter, and what excites her about the future of plant-based baking.

How did you get started in pastry?

I always knew I wanted to be in this industry. Even as a kid, I was obsessed with watching the Food Network. I went to a cooking camp in middle school, and I just loved baking. I started working in kitchens when I was 18, and pastry was always my focus. It was the part of baking I was most drawn to. 

What led you to specialize in laminated doughs?

Laminated doughs are one of the most technical and rewarding aspects of pastry. There's no way to fake it...either you get the layering, structure, and crispness right, or you don't. It requires precision, temperature control, and patience. When you achieve that perfect honeycomb structure in a croissant, it's incredibly satisfying.

You've worked in some of the most prestigious bakeries. How did those experiences shape your approach to pastry?

My time at Bouchon Bakery, Lincoln Ristorante, b.Patisserie, and Hart Bageria gave me a deep understanding of ingredients, technique, and production processes. Each of those kitchens had different approaches to laminated doughs, and I learned to appreciate the nuances of different butters, proofing methods, and shaping techniques. 

After I moved to Copenhagen to work at Hart Bageri, I was exposed to even more styles of baking, and I saw how much variation existed between different regions and traditions. But one thing was constant, lamination depends on high-quality butter that performs consistently.

What role does butter play in laminated doughs and why was it so important to develop a plant-based alternative? 

Butter is everything in lamination. Its plasticity and the ability to stay firm yet pliable...it determines whether you get flaky, structured layers or a collapsed, greasy mess. If butter is too soft, it melts into the dough; if it's too firm, it cracks and creates a gap.  

When I went plant-based about eight years ago, I quickly realized there were no professional quality plant-based butter that could withstand the demands of laminated doughs. Most of the options available were designed for general consumer use, not for professional pastry chefs who need butter to perform consistently in lamination, viennoiserie, and enriched doughs.  

What are some of the most common mistakes bakers make when laminating dough, especially with plant-based butter? 

Over-handling the dough is another issue. Laminated doughs need careful, intentional movements, every fold and roll-out affects the final product. Too much press or too many unnecessary turns will overwork the gluten and compress the layers, making the pastry dense instead of light and airy. 

What is some advice you have for aspiring bakers that are trying to walk this fine line between sustainability and craft? 

For me, when it comes to sustainability, it's more about waste reduction. There are all these resources that went into making every single ingredient whether it's through labor, water, or soil. So, it's about being mindful of how product is being used. 

Think about some swaps for ingredients you can make that don't change the product but make a more positive impact.  

Why do you think plant-based pastry is becoming essential to professional kitchens? 

Plant-based pastry is about accessibility, not just veganism. There are so many people who need dairy-free options, whether it's for allergies, dietary restrictions, or personal preference. And the reality is, if a bakery doesn't have high-quality plant-based options, they're losing customers.  

But for plant-based pastry to work in professional settings, it has to be just as technically refined as traditional pastry. That's what we're working on, ensuring that plant-based pastries are equal in quality, taste, and execution to their dairy-free counterparts. 

What's next for you?

I’m focused on education, chef collaborations, and expanding my reach to more professional bakers. I want to make plant-based pastries and cooking just all around more approachable.  

Beyond that, I’m continuing to refine new product formulations that will help fill in other gaps in plant-based baking and cooking. There's still so much room for innovation in that space. 

Register for Modern Vegan Baking here.  The class has a particular focus on plant-based lamination, and we will explore vegan substitutes for common bakery ingredients. 

Follow Susannah and Tourlami for more plant-based baking.